Tuesday, August 25, 2015

Waldensians Reject the Pope's Apology: "We Could Not Forgive"

(Turin) Pope Francis had reached out his hand to Turin's Waldensians during his visit last June. He made controversial gestures to emphasize his intention and asked the Waldensians' forgiveness  from injustice done by Catholics.  Now the Waldensians have given the pope a response. A specially convened Waldensian Synod, which meets until Friday in Turin, rejected the outstretched hand of the Pope and declared themselves unable to grant forgiveness.Vatican Insider talks about an amazing "coldness" toward the Pope.
From April to June 2015, the  Shroud of Turin was on public display. Two million believers took the opportunity to make a pilgrimage to Turin, including Pope Francis. After visiting the shroud Francis paid a visit to the Waldensian temple on 22 June. The first pope to do so. (see Papal Kiss  for Waldensian Bible - Pope Francis, Don Bosco and the Waldensian ).

Pope Francis asked the  Waldensians for forgiveness in June for Catholic injustice

The relationship between Waldensians and Catholics is one of deep conflict. On both sides there were atrocities mainly during  the Middle Ages and the early modern period. Even in the mid-19th century the  Waldensians sought the life of  St. John Bosco.
Pope Francis made the unilateral first step towards reconciliation and asked the Waldensian forgiveness for the injustice committed by Catholics. The Pope had said: "On behalf of the Catholic Church, I ask you for forgiveness for the unchristian and even inhuman attitudes and actions, which we have done to you  throughout history.  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, forgive us! "
The Moderator of the Waldensian Table, Pastor Eugenio Bernardini, responded: "The Pope has overcome a wall that was built eight centuries ago when our church was accused of heresy and excommunicated by the Roman church." The pope did not argue.
To underline his readiness, the Pope kissed a Waldensian Bible which was presented to him by Waldensian pastors. It was a gesture that caused some criticism on the Catholic side.

Waldensian: Radicalized Pauperisten, the Calvinists were


Pope Francis kisses Waldensian Bible in whose main temple in Turin
The Waldensians  originated in the late 12th century as a pietistic movement. Its founder, Peter Valdes, was a contemporary of St. Francis of Assisi. The two movements of Peter Valdes and the Poverello of Assisi, however, went different ways. While St. Francis of Assisi renewed the Catholic Church, Peter Valdes led the way out of the Church.
In the 16th century the Waldensians adopted  Calvinist doctrine and have since been in effect,   Italian Calvinists. Since the 18th century there is, because of   the common hostility to the Catholic Church, close networking between Waldensians and Freemasonry. In the 19th century there was an "Away from Rome" movement in liberal circles of the leading Italian bourgeoisie toward the Waldenses. This movement was not numerically great, but intensified again the opposition. It is estimated that half of the 45,000 Italian Waldensians today go  back to the recent crossing movement. In 1979, the Waldensians  joined together with the Methodists in Italy.

 Waldensian synod specially convened to give the Pope an answer

The outstretched hand of the Pope sparked heated discussions within the Waldensian community. Finally, a  Waldensian synod was specially convened to respond to the Pope on his request for forgiveness. The Synod will meet until Friday in Torre Pellice for Turin. The answer is now clear and is negative. "We're moving, but we can not be forgive."  The decision of the Waldensian Synod can be summarized with these words.
In an official letter to the Pope the Synod declared: "Dear Brother in Christ Jesus, the Synod of the Evangelical Waldensian Church accepts with deep respect and not without emotion, your apology expressed on behalf of your church asking for forgiveness for what you have indeed even described as 'unchristian, even inhuman attitudes and actions' that have been taken in the past against our mothers and fathers," But then this is  followed by a big "but" of the  Waldensians. This new situation does not allow us, to step in the place of those who testified with their blood or the other Protestants suffering for their  faith, and to forgive you. "
This message, rejected the outstretched hand of the Pope, it was decided on Monday by the 180 people gathered at the Waldensian Synod.

No request for forgiveness by the Waldensians for the wrongs they committed

In the message goes on to say: "The fraternal dialogue that we are having today is a gift of God's mercy,  which has forgiven your and our church many times  and still forgives, by inviting to repentance, to conversion and to a new life." In fact, however, the Pope's asking for  forgiveness  has been answered with a affront. The Waldensians retreat to the position that a pardon can be issued only by the victims themselves. Vice versa the apology on the Catholic, the   Mea culpa for years passed  is thus called into question, since accordingly  only the offender could ask for forgiveness, but not their direct or indirect descendants. But this formalist position can not hide the fact that the Waldensians in reality do not want to approach the Catholic Church. Because this could have been expressed differently, despite the question of direct forgiveness.
The Waldensian Synod for their  part couldn't find a word of apology for the wrongs committed by Waldensians against the Catholic Church and the Catholics.
Text: Giuseppe Nardi
Image: Vatican Insider / Chiesa e postconcilio
Trans: Tancred vekron99@hotmail.com
AMDG


32 comments:

  1. Heretics will be heretics, and will continue to hate the Catholic Church.

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    1. It was predicted 150 years ago that the Catholic church would apologize in pretense and then go on to commit its most atrocious acts yet. The Roman Papacy is clearly the anti-christs which is beyond repentance as a system just as Satan is an angel!

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  2. No forgiveness ? Hah ! Way to go, heretics ! These people are still trying to seduce Catholics from the Faith, with booklets like "Ma il Vangelo non dice cosi", or in English "...But the Bible does not say so". They are enemies of the Faith, and they imperil the salvation of Catholics. Maybe this rebuff will open the HF's eyes.

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  3. They certainly do not practice a Christian faith when they refuse forgiveness.

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    1. They are heretics, and heretics have no charity, since there is charity only in the Church. So, no forgiveness. They can't grow in grace if they didn't forgive, and they will not be forgjven by God if they do not forgive (St. Matthew 18.22-35). They have done a very good job of putting themselves in the wrong and the HF in the right.

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    2. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  4. "The Eight per thousand tax introduced 1985 in Italy greatly helped the Waldensian community. The Eight per thousand (Italian: otto per mille) law allows taxpayers to choose to whom they devolve a compulsory 8 ‰ = 0.8% ('eight per thousand') from their annual income tax return. They may choose an organised religion recognised by Italy or a social assistance scheme run by the Italian State. While the Waldensians have only about 25,000 enlisted members, about 412,000 Italians are willing to support the Waldensian community and its charitable works.[63] The ordination of women and since 2010 the blessing of same-sex unions[64]are allowed."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians#Appraisal_by_Protestants

    ## That puts things into perspective. They are basically just another liberal Protestant sect.

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  5. Heathens, or heretics, what's the difference? They don't believe in God, I mean Christian God, they worship only Moneygod, all Protestants do.End of discussion.

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    1. Christ taught that the world will know if we are his disciples by whether we love one another as God has loved us. The HF has demonstrated that love. Whether one believes the theology of the Waldenses or not, whether one believes in the theology of the Catholic faith, or not, Christ "drew" people to himself. His kindness, his love were his means of marketing. The HF is correct. Killing "heretics" is not following the example of Christ. Christ said that the wheat and the tares would grow together until his second coming. We are not to root them out ourselves...

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    2. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

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  6. Ironically they are right on one point - only victims can forgive. This is why the pope cannot "apologize" for things done centuries ago.

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    1. And why it is useless to try. The Holy Catholic Church needs to snap out of its self-hatred, and be unashamedly Catholic. It will not win a single soul by refusing to be the Catholic Church teaching the Catholic Faith, without apology, excuse, or embarrassment.

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  7. it is a bit unclear. I know about how the Catholics persecuted the Waldensians. What did the Waldensians do to the Catholics for which they need to be forgiven? I'm sorry, but I am a history professor (and a devout Catholic) and this period is among my specialities and I have never found any sort of persecution of Catholics by the Waldensians. It is a bit like asking Blacks to apologize to the Whites for what the Blacks did to them during slavery

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    1. You're a big part of the reason why Catholics should stop funding "Catholic" schools.

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    2. OK, Perfesser Consolamentum,

      I'll take you at your word. Tell me what a "Waldensian bible" is.

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  8. The entire apologies mania started by John Paul II devolves, whether intentionally or not, in the demoralizing of the entire Church---an efficacious way of weakening it (in the case of Francis I firmly believe, given his lethal combination of astuteness, harshness towards all he dislikes, and culpable ignorance of the history of the Church, is intentional). I do not know specifically the crimes of the Waldensians, but I do know, as they are well documented in history, the many crimes against Catholics by the Cathars, the Calvinists (particularly in France and in Geneva), the Anglicans in Elizabethan and Jacobean England, and the Puritans in New England and the American colonies in general. Knowing Protestantism for the fountain of seething hatred against the Faith that 500 years richly demonstrate, I can well believe the Waldensians are not the meek, persecuted lambs that the delusional Bergoglio makes them out to be. Their rancor in their refusing his "apologies" (serves him right for his pathetic groveling) is palpable proof that the old hatred and spirit of Luciferian protest that are the signature trait of all Protestantism is alive and well in these sectarians. RC

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    1. Christ said that the world would know if we were Christians by whether we love one another. The HF showed love and humility. All of humanity have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Catholic and Protestant. Spiritual pride is a trap. No church, no denomination, no sect, no group of humans have failed to demonstrate our utter sinfulness. Hence our need for Jesus Christ. Our savior.

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  9. What was it that our Lord said about casting pearls before swine?

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  10. Apologizing for action you had no part in is the ultimate form of cowardice that should never had been engaged in. The Waldensians are heretics and the civil penalties for heresy in the 12th through the 19th century was suppression and execution if unrepentant. It was both a correct and just punishment and God has judged both the executioner and the executed for the appropriateness and justice of the act. It isn't Bergoglio's right to ask for anything from this anti-Catholic sect except repentance and return to the faith anything else is vainglory and craven posturing.

    The boob who claims to be a "history" professor who doesn't comprehend the deep and perpetual anti-Catholic animus of the Left, Freemasonry and the Waldensians united in a common front to destroy the church in 19th Century is beneath contempt .

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  12. I never quite have understood how you can apologize for something you didn't personally do. Bergoglio didn't do anything to the Waldensians except it appears, to accept them in their error instead of instructing them in the Truths of the Faith of the Catholic Church. That would be the apology he needs to give.

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  13. A sad period. In 1655 the Duke of Savoy led a massacre of Waldesnsians who would not convert to Catholicism. According to one report by a Peter Liegé:

    Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.[25]

    This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe.

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    1. Looks like you cut and pasted a comment that's only extant on Wikipedia.

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    2. So the Duke of Savoy staged this for no reason????

      Why did Orianna Fallaci never (at least not to my knowledge) talk about this? She was a Waldo.

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  14. The only definition of a cult is a group of people who follow a man. Therefore the RC is the largest cult in the world

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    1. Good question. I've never found a Protestant who follows Jesus Christ. They follow Martin Luther, Jerry Falwell, or Billy Graham... But not Christ.

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  16. 30 million people murdered

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